Building materials manufacturers run a complex business. But we are here to help you plan for the future, whether you are launching a new product, rebuilding a brand, trying to get thoughtful communication strategies in place or everything in between here on constructing brands, we will be talking with leading experts in construction, architecture, engineering, marketing, and manufacturing to help make your building materials company stronger and more profitable with 15 plus years of experience.

Helping building materials companies succeed and grow your host, Eric Linnell.

First and foremost, thank you for coming on constructing brands. So nice to meet you guys.

Thank you so much for having us.

you.

I saw your bios and I did a little digging and I’ve got so many questions that this is going to be a real fun one because entrepreneurial bend meets making the world a better place meets how do we take our passions and take it to another level.. How’d you two meet and what kind of started the impetus for a painting company that really is the world’s first wellness paint?

I’m happy to start with that one and price can add on. Price and I met at a wellness retreat in Santa Fe in 2020 and I, my background is not professionally in art and design. It’s been mostly in finance, but my. Passion is an art and design, and I started collecting a fair bit of art, and I would say I have a really particular aesthetic quality, and so I naturally gravitated towards Price.

She’s one of the coolest people I know and we had a lot to talk about just as fun. Friends as it relates to art and all different types of mutual passions that we have. But that’s really how our friendship started separately during the pandemic. So prior to that, I was taking classes at the New York Academy of Art, just.

Because I was starting getting into collecting again, my mom was a decorative painter when I was growing up. So I’d always had a passion for it. And I was just obsessed with materials. Every time I would look at pieces of art, I would really be curious about oh, how is this constructed? And then in 2021, when the pandemic happened, the school shut down and I was looking for a creative project to do inside of my home. And so I thought about repainting. I live in New York City. My apartment’s 450 square feet. It’s not large. And so I went to

Home Depot with the intent to purchase, interior paint. And, I just started smelling that paint smell fume and realized very quickly that I’m not going to be able to paint my apartment in New York City.

It’s the pandemic. I can’t go anywhere. I’m going to suffocate inside of my house. And furthermore, I’m going to upset all of my neighbors because no one can leave their space. And that’s one of the most annoying things in New York City when somebody, when one of your neighbors paints and not to mention everyone was concerned about being able to breathe and what was going on.

So I didn’t want to be like that terrible neighbor that upset everybody in the hallway. And I started going down this rabbit hole to discover like, why is it that paint smells so bad? And I had some familiarity because I know when I was doing oil painting and different types of works inside of the class, like we always had to be careful making sure that we were washing our brushes, making sure that like these materials weren’t on our hands and things like that, how we were cleaning everything.

And then I was like, when the United States we use acrylic or latex based paints or a combination of the two, and those by definition are plastic. And petrochemical based. And that really is like the basis as to why they smell so bad. And we’ve been painting our spaces long before the advent of plastic.

And that really didn’t line up with my values. I am somebody that shops at Whole Foods, that cares about what I put on my skin, that cares about what, supplies I use inside of the house that is paying a lot more attention to the conversation around I’m not microwaving anything in plastic, I’m not cooking with non stick pans, all of that.

So I was like, how am I going to surround my entire space with plastic? Like, how do people not know about this? And it was really important to me as someone that is such a lover of design. And and art to ensure that whatever we do from a brand perspective would really meet my aesthetic point of view.

And that’s when I turned to price somebody that I mentioned, I really admire her aesthetic point of view. And I was just like, did you know this? Paint is made out of plastic. I feel like. We need to create something better and alternative and do you know anybody? I had no idea what price and professionally at the stage.

We were just friends. And I was like, do you know anybody that could help me create a brand that really meets that aspirational quality? That’s super high end design. feel that I want to align with this best in class product. And I was very

lucky to find out that price, for, I not let her tell this story from her point of view, but it was the perfect moment to approach price about something like this.

And her background was incredibly well suited to come on as our chief creative officer and co founder. It was meant to be, I’d like to say but that’s how Alchemist came to be. Price, I don’t know if there’s anything you want to add.

Yeah, so my background, as I mentioned, is, has been in art and design my entire life. And also, both of us, we always like to emphasize we’re such conscientious consumers. I’ve been a pretty like hardcore naturopath since I was a teenager. I’ve been vegetarian for 31 years. Always thinking about, what I’m putting into my body and surrounding myself with.

And, despite the fact that. I’ve been an artist and designer my entire life and I thought I knew a lot about paint. It was this like shocking revelation to really understand what conventional interior paint is made out of. And my thought thereafter was like, look, if I don’t know about this, someone who’s like really highly educated in this sector, then guaranteed the general consumer doesn’t know about this stuff.

And. Maya said, we went down these rabbit holes and started to understand how toxic these chemicals are, both for humans and for the environment, and then it’s just something that you really can’t unsee, and so we both said, there has to be a better solution here. And again, with my background in, branding, creative direction, I like, I worked in the furniture world, the art world, the hospitality world, building the restaurant brand interior design. And it really is just, like you said, bringing all of these things together that Maya and I both care about, are passionate about. And, creating a brand that we believe can truly shift an industry, away from these deleterious practices of, petrochemical extraction from the earth and hearkening back to how people painted and, used color to enhance their space for tens of thousands of years before the advent of plastic.

This is so cool in that you guys don’t know my, so my first, my grandfather owned a painting company. We’ll start with that.

No way. No

So statue of Liberty his company painted the inside of the statue of Liberty,

Wow.

international house of pancake. He did all of them.

What?

Wow.

So when I, was a little kid my memories growing up or like being at Marvin’s paint at 5 30 a. m. And. Back then, those guys like smoked cigars inside

Totally.

Love it.

fast forward, when I was in high school, I started a painting company.

And that was my first entrepreneurial thing. And it was called four LNL painting. So

Cool. Yeah,

that you referred to at the beginning. Yeah. I like that’s almost, it’s almost like the smell of gasoline, right? It’s once it’s almost like a weird, do I love it or hate it? I’m not sure.

It’s so distinct, right?

people love it.

It, but it’s, but living in a small apartment in Manhattan or even a large apartment, it’s just. Living in Manhattan to paint your apartment. Good for you. Not, to think about what that does not only to you, but your neighbors, I guess my first thought is. No kidding. I never thought about that either. Like these are chemicals that, chemical companies, quite frankly, that are developing this product that we’re surrounding ourselves with.

Different acrylics and different, different things that we know are toxic in so many ways. So what’s the step from, Hey, I understand there’s a thing here that I’m surrounding myself with that. I might, what makes you think that you have the ability to take on this industry that is older than us and come into it wow, I think there’s a better way and I think I’m going to be able to invent that.

How does that happen?

Not surprisingly, right? We’ve been painting our spaces long before the advent of plastic. And to your point, there is this similar smell between gasoline and paint. And that’s because these Paints are derived from petrochemicals. And we can get into all of the conversations about why we need to lessen our dependence on petrochemicals in general.

But certainly when it comes to areas that it’s just simply not necessary, like it really, that should be where we’re starting. We use 94 million. Metric tons of oil to create paint in the United States alone on an annual basis. And we have been, as I mentioned, painting our spaces long before the advent of plastic.

So when we went down, we did 3. 5 years of R. and D. at 1st, we started looking at, like, all of the innovation and the. fashion industry, what they’re doing with natural pigments, seeing if there was a way that we could

replicate that. And fairly quickly our chemists let us know that, natural pigments are not light fast.

So first you find chemists and you’re thinking pigment. There’s got to be a way back in caves. Cavemen didn’t use oil and petrol. They use pigment. So was that the, is that how the rabbit hole started?

Yes. So bringing up the caveman component is ultimately where we landed. We basically went back to ancient technologies of paint making. Our formula is mineral based. And so the pigments that were used in these caves came from rocks, crushed up rocks, and then some type of binder that was like sap for, something along those lines.

We basically took that concept and overlaid it with modern technology to create a mineral based formula, which we always like to level set with people and say, would you rather paint your home with plastic or rock? It seems like a really intuitive idea now that you’ve seen what we typically don’t see.

C is this concept that we’re using plastic for everything, and it’s simply not necessary. And there are so many advantageous attributes of utilizing mineral technologies inside of the home. A lot of people who are interested in interior wellness, right? been familiarized with things like lime wash which is made out of slaked lime.

And, is a natural alternative. Also has a really beautiful finish. We actually offer that to the trade. It’s not publicly available now. But that being said, it is a very

specific finish. And, sometimes people just want. A normal white painted room or a blue painted room or, whatever it might be.

And our mineral based formula basically applies like normal paint. Anybody can do it. It’s a little bit heavier than your traditional acrylic latex, but it has so many health and environmental benefits of going in this direction and certainly. Whether you’re in a super large space or a very small space it is, it lasts so much longer.

It’s super beautiful. It has a very low odor. And so had I wanted to, had I had this paint during the pandemic, I could have painted my apartment and slept in there the same night.

Very cool. Very cool. So yeah. Go down the rabbit hole, you are you find this that this can be done. You have chemistry, two years in R and D, you get it all together. How do you launch this? How do you let the world know that you have this opportunity for people to painters and architects?

And it’s such a. Big wide, how do you narrow focus and how do you go to market?

Yeah, I think it’s such an interesting, strategy and then, having, obviously Maya has, experience working in finance and business and working on wall street. And so my, my experience more from the art and design perspective, and then building a brand with a restaurant and how much do you focus on PR?

How much do you focus on traditional advertising? How much do you focus on word of mouth? So our strategy for the first year was, has. really to focus on the design trade. So the architects and interior designers in the country who we think that this product would resonate with both, from, my, we like to say we sit in this Venn diagram of aspirational, clean and modern.

Like we believe like those are the things that people want in their homes. So reaching out to and setting up meetings with architects and designers, with whom we think, like we said, this product will resonate in as well as with their clients. And, hoping that, this will trickle down to the DIY consumer as well.

Now we’re more, we’re in our second year, we’re doing a more two pronged approach, but we had, we’ve teamed up with some of the best design galleries and showrooms in the country. And so we launched our product with this incredible installation at our own company in New York in Tribeca, and they painted their entire 8, 000 square foot space with our paint.

And it, it served as the backdrop to these really beautiful art and these really beautiful furniture and design exhibitions. And so that was our entree into the world. Again, we’re hitting, kind of people who are interested in art and design interior design, people who care about wellness, and then, just.

A lot of word of mouth. Honestly, it’s been a lot of boots on the ground,

There are so many advantageous attributes of our paint, depending on why you are like remodeling your home. Like, when it comes to the design industry in general, I think that, it’s important to talk about aesthetics. Like people want to live in a beautiful space and it doesn’t mean that you need to have a certain type of income.

Like our paint is very affordable, especially if you think about it over its lifespan but being something that is like cool and aspirational is. Developing a brand with a luxury component that makes you feel like you have something beautiful inside of your house is a delicate process. You need to partner with the right people, you need to tell the right story, you need to have the right supporters behind you, especially in the design world. And when it comes to the design world I will say, There not yet in a place where it’s like it’s commonplace for something to be both environmentally friendly and considered high design. And so that’s why, it was important to us to make sure that we were partnering with organizations like of course, our own company and these super high end design studios design Miami.

We were the preferred partner of, which was an absolute dream come true. A bunch of. Really incredible art fairs that we really look up to institutions. certain influencers in the wellness space. All of this stuff helps create a certain buzz around the brand that gets you excited about it.

And people tend to be superficial and they care about that type of stuff. So it’s if that’s the reason why you’re going to buy it, because it’s beautiful and super high quality then, whatever, it happens to be environmental and good for you. Great. But From a health perspective, people who have had mold poisoning, people who have had who have multiple chemical sensitivity, people who are already versed in this conversation around microplastics they’re looking at alchemist paint from a different reason, and we have so much literature and conversation to have with those people as well.

And certainly for people who are into sustainability there’s So many disturbing facts. Like I mentioned about the amount of fossil fuels that we’re using on an annual basis, architectural paints, according to Forbes, an article they did in

2022, make up 58 percent of the microplastics in the ocean. so that is like a really big deal. I, that certainly was a stat that blew both price in my mind, like this is an opportunity to be the change that you want to see inside of your home. You make these intentional choices, on the highest level, when we’re thinking about how to approach the overall consumer when it comes to design, aesthetics are the first thing that people tend to think about, and that’s why we went, we’re going in that direction.

We don’t want to be pigeonholed into this Brand that is okay, you’re good for the environment, but you’re not like a sexy, beautiful company.

Whereas when you look at these other categories, when you think about clean skin care or organic food my mom was a decorative painter when I was growing up and my dad was a professional athlete and We ate at natural food stores from like the time that I was born.

But when I was younger, like kids, weren’t eating lollipops made out of fruit juice and

I get it.

Cheetos. Like only I was, and that was like, quote unquote,

I was too. So I was the kid with the carob coated peanuts and the

I’m sure you

tote and the

were

soy milk that you popped the thing. I was that kid. So I get it.

same. And but we were the kids that nobody wanted to trade snacks with and

That’s right.

there are no snacks that you can go to at a preschool that are not like, generally speaking, like right, healthy, same thing with clean skincare, like We had the pleasure of collaborating with Tata Harper and painting her house.

And, she’s one of the original women to have the conversation around how clean skincare and luxury skincare don’t need to be mutually exclusive. And when she started, people told her she was crazy and no one was ever going to buy that. And now, Sephora has a whole section for clean beauty.

Credo beauty exists. All of these things have become our baseline and so we really think that, we’re the 1st to have this conversation in the design industry or 1 of the 1st and these things, we just have to, we just have to do better across the board, but there’s no reason to sacrifice on aesthetics.

It’s a tough game because You’re developing a brand, you’re first in a category, or developing a category. How do you make sure you’re not creating a stigma in driving a brand while developing a category?

And by the way, you’ve got, when you want to go, when you want to scale, painters need to know about it, which is a whole different group. And typically, and that’s going to be price. That’s going to be price versus value. So that’s a whole different conversation of,

Yeah.

can they get more money or can they get the job because they’re offering it?

And that’s a whole different positioning statement then. And then you think, I just keep thinking of Apple, how they launched, right?

It to students, they give to art students and showed them an opportunity. So it’s almost like you’re, you’ve got, it’s so wide how you can do this, that it’s, and there’s so many people in so many ways that you could present it.

That to me is the super interesting part of the entrepreneurial move that you guys are making, right? Like, how do you do it? Turning to the partnership as co founders, how do you align on how to bring this product to market and to brand it? Because I, and I’m just guessing, but price, you’ve got that kind of like from the design perspective, this is the way you’re thinking.

And we didn’t really, Maya, we didn’t really introduce you as, Oh, by the way, you’re also a marketing person who worked for American express and really understands co ventures and branding and ways to tie big brands in and pull them in and drive success that way. Like, how does the partnership work in those difficult ideas of how much and who to show what to keep that brand arrow sexy yet smart in front of it, but not aloof, how do you do that?

we’re, we’ve been so lucky. Our partnership is such a perfect foil. I have to say, It’s crazy. We all we joke that we share the same brain, right? And so it’s I’ll come in with, certain skill sets that I have. And then Maya comes in with all these incredible skill sets that she has.

And it really coalesces into this, again, just like perfect in like Holistic and very full and comprehensive partnership. We also have our incredible CFO Lori Prill, who is again, third part of our small, but mighty triumvirate. And we just compliment each other really well.

And so it, of course there have been challenging times, but it’s those particular aspects of the business have flowed. Like symbiotically and harmoniously.

I agree with everything that price just said, and as it relates to how do we approach this? It’s been it’s an ongoing discussion but I will say we’ve been really successful so far in, lot of stuff that is like just genuinely old school, right?

It’s meeting with all of these incredible designers. And we’ve had the privilege of meeting with a ton of the 80 top 100 designers because of our, collaborations with our own company and design Miami and just our networks and the people that have supported us, and the doors that people have opened, like this conversation, Is not it’s not a new one because we’re having it in so many other areas where we’re talking about the impact of microplastics. We also happen to be aligned with the Parsons healthy materials lab. And, the Parsons design school is 1 of the most foremost schools in the country for design. And they are. Pushing this message. And a lot of designers who have been in this space for a long time, like these are not new conversations.

They’re having them if they’re professors, they’re having these conversations with our students. We also have a big contingency of people in the building biology community, which this is a growing industry as well. But I would say the way that it works from a. Who’s making the call on how we go out with stuff. I feel like Price and I will both come collaboratively with ideas. And then, I have to say while I. a very keen aesthetic as to what I view. I don’t know how to create those things. And I fully trust price drive whatever my vision is, like into a place that we’re both really happy with it. She’s gone to the best art schools in the country. Like I are, if you look at our branding now, they’re like, when we were coming out with our brand, like I, made the we and we have some really great mentors to like my friend, Diana Cohen, who started crown affair. She created this hair care company, but it’s a movement, right?

She talks about taking your time with. Washing your hair and does these artistic collaborations with all different types of people and companies in the same space. And I feel like that’s what really pushes brands forward now are these collaborations that you don’t necessarily. would have seen as two things that are similar in nature. But as soon as you see somebody bring them together, you’re like, Oh yeah of course that makes all the sense in the world. And Diana had told us really early on build a brand that you want to buy

yeah.

invest in that.

so what collabs are coming or what have is there anything coming that, that you could share with us?

We did design Miami last year. I don’t we’re going to do that again this year. Which is, the world’s, foremost design on an annual basis. So that’s really exciting. We’ve continued our partnership with our and company throughout this year. We’re going to be doing a great exhibition in September called objects USA as well as a bunch of other design galleries around the country. We’re working with Cisco home. We’re working with a bunch of really cool, fun stores around the country. We did a collaboration with cause the H and M brand. If you go to their store in Williamsburg it’s painted with Alchemist paint. We also did an incredible collaboration with Tata Harper.

We painted a bunch of rooms inside of her home. And we had a really informative, great discussion during N. Y. C. By design that included Tata Harper, Rafael the car Dennis, who is, one of the 80 top 100 world’s most known designers, Tata Harper an incredible furniture designer named Moral Turgaman, who won Best Interior for Design Miami, as well as the CEO of Spoke, Hila Stahl. And we all asked them the same questions about, Why use healthy materials inside of the home? And of course, everybody had a different perspective, for Tata, it was a no brainer because this is how she’s chosen to live her life. Her house is already, EMF free and crystal gridded. When you talk to somebody like Raphael, he’ll say some of my clients. private jets for their na know if they’re so focus but they really care abou families. And I think tha that everybody can sort o all different types of ma Practice and she could really speak to the actual nature of the paint.

And then of course, I forgot to mention Parsons Healthy Materials Lab was there, the director of education, Katherine Murphy, who literally blew everybody away with all of the facts and figures that she had around, what

microplastics are doing to our environment and what they’re doing to our health and how babies are born with.

257 microplastics in their bodies, how paint is found in human blood, how, this is the easiest way for people to make a well informed wellness choice inside of their home because people are like where do I even start? It’s Paint is five surfaces inside of your house. If you want to be in an environment that is healthier, like conventional paints can off gas for up to 10 years.

So here’s an opportunity for you to make a, on a relative scale, a cheap investment inside of your home to have a healthier indoor environment.

Where can I buy this? I like, I’m looking at this paint thinking it’s, I feel like it’s moving on me.

Yeah, everything’s available exclusively on our website and we, we did that on purpose. I think, certainly during the pandemic, people got used to ordering everything to their homes.

So it’s direct to consumer and it also allows us to keep our exacting color and production standards.

So everything is, produced in our factory and is drop shipped out to customers. So it’s, again you had a painting business and you grew up with your grandfather who was a painter. So particularly from the contractor standpoint, just shifting people’s perspective a little bit and telling people like, Hey, let us work with you to back into your paint schedules and timing as opposed to, the kind of the traditional model of being like, it’s painting day.

Let’s get up at 5 30 in the morning and go to Home Depot and get the paint, right? So

Yourself a little bit more time to get our product, but it’s very much worth it in the end because of all of the advantages attributes.

So I could go to your website and I could buy paint there. Tell me about the color selection and how you’ve curated what colors and what that process looks like and where is it now and where’s it going?

Yeah. So I like to say it was for me, a dream come true with, my background in color theory and graphic design. I had the most. Creating our color palette. I could have just kept creating colors, we always like to say the magic is in the

editing. So I, put together a very large palette and then edited down and really, thought about. Just with my experience in interior design we reached out to a number of trusted interior designers and architects and ran the palette by them. And, got their feedback and, constructive criticism on Hey are we missing anything in this color family? But we do feel like we have a really comprehensive color palette. It’s 119 colors and. we use only 10 natural pigments. So I think when you see our color palette, you’ll be pretty wowed by the range of colors that we can get. Some of them are quite bright, a lot of them are really vibrant and, obviously there are colors that we can’t achieve.

We do like to do custom color matching for special projects and collaborations with artists. But, if someone’s I want to neon Barbie pink, we’re like, sorry, it’s not going to happen. But again, when you reframe the parameters of these pigments are all things that, can have come from the earth and can go back to the earth. I think you’re very pleased with and and like surprised by the amount of colors that we can get.

So what’s the hot color that if you’re thinking about so many people work from home, a home office, what is that inspiring color that you would recommend someone look at that is within your. Options that you would, and you could just, you could tell me, and then people who are listening might want to go to your website and check out the color.

So if

totally. Maya and I in general, we’re we’re such fans of, biophilic design. And so this, I, this whole idea of, bringing nature indoors and and how that makes you feel. And, there’s a whole entire. Section of science around neuro aesthetics and how, our brain is affected by color. And I really, it comes down to, personal selection stuff, obviously colors like, green, because green is the color of nature and, it represents, things that are young and fresh and, it’s omnipresent and like a perfect backdrop in nature. Carries like implications of like contemplation and, eternal, green, like in Japanese culture, the word for green is Midori, which means, it’s the color of eternal life because the evergreens in the forest never change colors green. In particular, greens and blues invoke calmness and tranquility.

That’s great for home office. But also, reds and yellows, if you want to stay awake and you want to be

so if I go to your website, tell me what color I should look at. I’m going to do that when we get off.

Yeah, we’re really big fans of the lazurite, which is like a super, super bright, blue, like a similar to a majorelle blue

Okay.

Swear this is like the universally loved color. Sometimes I paint my nails this color. And people, men and women will all compliment it. But we happen because of the natural pigment and the texture of the paint. It’s very similar to a normal paint, but there is something unique about the light reflective quality because The paint has a beautiful patented clear crystal quartz binder. It really just, I don’t know, it feels like you’re surrounded in like ultramarine stone and it is just so beautiful.

Awesome.

entrepreneurial taking on the big companies, all that stuff what’s the one piece of advice that you would give people who are, who have an idea and they want to change the world in a beautiful way.

And they want to take on. A passionate pursuit. What is the biggest kind of thing that you didn’t see coming that hit you that you wish someone would have warned you about before it came at you

I have two things. First off, like for advice for people, starting their own companies and, venturing out into the entrepreneurial world. I think like you just have to really believe in yourself and. Don’t take no for an answer. So many people are going to tell you all the reasons why you can’t do this. And then, on the flip side do your due diligence, do your research and make sure this is a viable idea. But you really believe in yourself. And, if you know that you have a clever and interesting and, progressive idea, run with it and find. The people, build that village behind you find the people who are on board and who share that, symbiotic vision. And then, secondly, the thing I think that’s been most interesting just how. An original a lot of people are and how quick people are to copy your ideas. And I think that’s. Been something I mean. an artist and designer, like we know that, but I think that’s something that you’re like, oh wait, whoa, that’s that’s real.

And just to, be aware

I would say two of the things that, I think that people should be aware of is it’s really important to build trust. The right foundation. And don’t get disappointed

if your sales numbers, like in the first year or not where you wanted them to be like you, it takes a while to build a brand, like things take longer than you think.

And, there are ways where you can raise a ton of money and you can scale super quickly, but then and I’m not saying this always happens, but I do have a lot of friends that are entrepreneurs, you’re, it’s important to be. thoughtful about every step in the process because it’s easy to throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and sees what sticks but then you end up wasting a lot of money doing that and I think it’s better to just build and give yourself time and figure out how to have that Bandwidth so you can be really intentional and deliberative to the best that you can.

Entrepreneurship will throw a bunch of curveballs at you. And so like there, you’re always going to mess up and you’re always going to have expensive mistakes. You got to have, you’re going to have to get over that and it sucks. Like being intentional I think is really and managing your cap table well and managing your money is really important.

And then, the other thing I would say is

Don’t take advice from everybody. Pick a couple of people that you think you know, you really wanna get advice from based upon. What their experiences are and what your connection is and how you feel. But a lot of times you’re going to be making decisions based upon your intuition and trust it because it’s right.

I love that I’m actually right. Don’t take advice from everybody because a lot of people have a lot of things to say. Trust your instincts.

Yeah.

it’s great. That’s great advice. I love that. Maya Crowne and Price Latimer. Thank you so much for being on the show. Really appreciate your time, your energy and what you’re doing.

I can’t recommend enough that people go to your site, check out what you’re doing and jump on the movement that is starting. One wall at a time.

Thank you so much.

thank you.

for your taking the time to ask such insightful questions and we’re really appreciative.

Appreciate both of you. Thank you.

Thanks for having us on. Bye.